Agenda
March 5th, 2015, 11:30 o'clock
Synopsis Stenographic Minutes
Chairperson: Prof. Dr. Patrick Sensburg, MdB
Topic of agenda
Hearing of witnesses
Dr. Urmann, BND, Department 2 from 2006 to 2008 (evidence conclusion Z-59)
WikiLeaks Synopsis
The witness is questioned on the programmes “Eikonal“ and “Glo“. The questions for example deal with the motivation of the NSA and the BND for these programmes or with the modalities of data exchange between the agencies.
Proceedings
This meeting brings the evidence on basis of the evidence conclusion Z-59 dating October 16th, 2014, to the inquiry federal print matter 18/843 by hearing Mr. Dr. Urmann as witness. The witness is first heard publicly, which is followed by a non-public hearing.
The witness is asked in particular about the programmes “Eikonal“ and “Glo“. Besides details about how and with which selectors the data capturing is done, the questions deal with the motivation and goals of the NSA and the BND for these programmes - more precisely, with the modalities of data exchange between the agencies but also with reasons for the termination the programmes. Moreover, questions about the BND-internal handling as well as measures for controlling risks of the programmes are raised. Major groups of subjects below are referenced to selected passages in the transcript and several quotes can be read translated into English.
Hearing of Dr. Dieter Urmann
Personal details: Dieter Urmann is 63 years old and a professional soldier in retirement. From 1971 to 2013 he was a member of the army. Aside from his education as an officer, he has studied electrical engineering and did his PhD in machine engineering. At the German Armed Forces, he was group leader in the department for material. In 2001 he changed to the BND. There he became staff manager in autumn 2003 in the department for technical reconnaissance (Department 2), then head of the sub-department for intelligence collection and then the successor of Reinhardt Breitfelder.
Rechtsbeistand: RAn Dr. Stefanie Schork
--- No initial statement--
Particularly intensively discussed groups of subjects (note: f / ff indicate this page and the next / this page and the following pages; the linked pages are not a complete list):
- The witness' tasks at the BND: 6f, 25f, 29f, 44f
- The witness' preparation for the hearing: 16
- Collaboration with the NSA / expectations, aims of the NSA and the BND / Memorandum of Agreement: 6ff, 18f, 20ff, 25ff, 31f, 35, 38f, 47f
- Programmes “Eikonal“/“Granat“, “Glo“ in general / reasons for termination / trial and actual operation: 7, 9, 20, 33, 35, 43f, 66
- Used soft- and hardware / selectors (e.g. EADS, Eurocopter) / XKeyscore / snapshots: 7, 9f, 13-16, 25, 27ff, 40f, 44-47, 50, 55ff, 59f, 69
- Legal bases / G-10-traffics / ring-exchange / “G-10-legend“: 9ff, 17f, 22, 24f, 36, 48, 53ff, 62-65, 68f, 71f
- “Eikonal“-vulnerability assessment / BND-internal control / risks: 11ff, 34f, 58ff, 61f, 70f, 73f
- Initiation and motivation for “Glo“: 20-23, 40, 42f
- Transfer of data to foreign intelligence agencies: 14f, 19, 30, 34, 38f, 40f, 43, 51f, 60, 62ff, 69
- Access at the provider / contract with the provider / “carte blanche“ / contact of BND with the German Chancellery: 30, 36ff, 41, 67f
- Captured meta data for drone strikes: 49f
- Reference to certain documents: 31, 52
- Reference to certain press articles: 30f, 34, 45, 55
Selected quotes:
Flisek: “Mr. Dr. Urmann, I first of all want to […] utter my astonishment at the fact that we here had several BND-members already, that did prepare themselves for the hearing in advance. You now are at least here as somebody, who [...] is located in the higher levels, as head of a department, and you obviously did not prepare yourself.“
Von Notz: “And then you practically changed the department leadership in April 2008. What was the background for that?
Urmann: I was transferred for disciplinary reasons due to the Causa Koelbl and took over a different department.
Von Notz: Is that a transfer for disciplinary reasons, when one - so to say - stays on the same level and only changes departments?“
Flisek: “Do you know whether the BND has data at its command that are adapted for […] accurately firing off so-called killer-drones on human targets?
Urmann: That is not so easy to answer. […] In principle the BND has at its demand the possibility to capture detection data. It is a question of precision, whether they are sufficient for that, what you are saying. [...]
Flisek: What do you know about the American programme on targeted killing of terror suspects by using drones?
Urmann: Yes, I know that they try to capture geo-location data as precisely as possible and that this data then is used to steer drones accordingly. Yes.“
Renner: “[T]hese operations [“Eikonal“, “Glo“ etc.] [are described] in the records [of the BND] always with a particular value, as jewels and honey-pots [...]. Around them always a lot of meetings and planning takes place - - problems are cleared away etc. Hence, we do know that these in particular have been shielded, have been particular operations.“
About termination of the programmes:
Von Notz: “If in the end the Americans say: […] “We have invested millions of Euro. We have made so many ongoing agreements, have built selectors etc. and now in the end just nothing comes out of all that. How can this be?“ How can this be with such a good intelligence agency, like the BND, that gains technical know-how with the great technology from the Americans? One optimises and optimises and all at once the stream of data becomes dry. So either the Telekom has decided: “We only give crap to the BND” - personally I don't believe that, because there were G-10 permissions – or the BND maybe has made some kind of decision, or everything has been a big coincidence. And now I ask you. What has happened?
Urmann: It probably happened randomly.“
Questions from Prof. Dr. Patrick Sensburg
Questions from the parliamentary groups
DIE LINKE
SPD
BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN
CDU/CSU
Second round of questions
DIE LINKE
CDU/CSU
BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN
SPD
Third round of questions and further rounds
DIE LINKE
CDU/CSU
BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN
DIE LINKE
BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN